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dennis@360ict.nl

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Reply with quote  #1 
I'm using for almost a year now Ubuntu on the desktop and i really like it. I'm by no means a linux guy, might be a linux-wannabe, but i had some trouble fixing my touchpad on Dell laptops and wanted to test if it wuld be just the windows driver/dell driver or the hardware. I found out the touchpad experience is similar to that of apple's on ubuntu on my hardware, while i couldn't by any means get it to work on Windows, it's a whole different topic and we tried _a lot_ on Win8.1/10 and different (Dell) laptops (i have a friend who uses the old driver, extracts the settings, deinstalls the software driver, pushes the settings to the registry and i kinds of works for him, except the Windows updates destroys this setup at least once a month.. [smile]. Anyway i was amazed on how well ubuntu worked on my system and kind of stayed there.

As I am a Windows-only guy and my whole company makes it's money selling windows knowhow, it seems kind of strange, but i was tired of the privacy violations on Windows/Apple and i couldn't tweak windows like i wanted to. I always had problems with headsets connecting to skype/lync after a resume, was tired of the touchpad nightmare, and hated all the white space. I'm not saying Ubuntu fixes all that, but i'm quite charmed by how Ubuntu does things, like;
- 9 month release cycle
- LTS support, Seems MS has
- really nice community
- my bugs were all taken very seriously, even though it was my first experience calling them in. That was _so_ refreshing.
> this is another topic entirely, most IT guys i know have the attitude it's just not worth trouble calling in MS bugs (unless they are on a server critical level) because MS never gives feedback or they just ignore it. I have seen many comments of MVP's where they say the same, btw. I know, the MS today is different, but the attitude of the IT crowd is already corrupted and i think it's too late for us.
- They gui flavors are many, many many.
- the bluetooth/audio settings exprience is _really_ great, MS could learn a thing from that.
- skype (we migrated from lync to skype _consumer_, not business) seems to work better (!?) than on windows, i think this a legacy issue from before the MS takeover, which i am very gratefull for.
- cmd line is not needed at all, even though im doing some (newbee) stuff on the cmdline, there is no need.
- VPN support (we use openvpn based clients anyway), but cisco/ipsec is builtin too. Very nice integration and option to autoconnect per network/user options.

things that hasn't worked out for me;
- connecting 2x 4k displays _with_ my laptop main screen did work on windows but not on my XPS12 with ubuntu 14.10/15.04, this is a hardwlimit (that wasn't handled correctly until 15.10).
- resuming seems to be an issue on a lot of platforms
- it's all very tweakble, but also very easy to destroy stuff, but i think thats true of windows too?
- my new hardware (XPS13) comes with broadcom nic which isn't supported yet, so i have to swap out that for intel (im no fan of broadcom anyway) and the PCIe is on some kind of mode which isn't supported yet too. I'm guessing the hardware is just too new (which explains the video card crashing a lot and all other app crashes too on windows). I found out the community around new hardware on ubuntu is also very nice, but it's a different (not so gooed) experience than getting your macbook i guess and takes some effort.

But back to my question, anyone trying ubuntu on the desktop?
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ATL_VM

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Reply with quote  #2 
Quote:
As I am a Windows-only guy and my whole company makes it's money selling windows knowhow, it seems kind of strange, but i was tired of the privacy violations on Windows/Apple and i couldn't tweak windows like i wanted to. I always had problems with headsets connecting to skype/lync after a resume, was tired of the touchpad nightmare, and hated all the white space. I'm not saying Ubuntu fixes all that, but i'm quite charmed by how Ubuntu does things,


OK I really don't get why people feel Windows is some half baked new product with no thought.  Windows just didn't arrive yesterday, and its rather ubiquitous.  Why would a product get to be such a HUGE draw if things like drivers, security and privacy were REALLY an issue.

In the first place violation:

noun
1.
the act of violating.
2.
the state of being violated.
3.
a breach, infringement, or transgression, as of a law, rule, promise, etc.:
He was fined for a traffic violation.
4.
desecration; profanation:
the violation of a cemetery.


People throw this word around A LOT and its not accurate AT ALL.  I especially love it when people use this term "violation" when pertaining to information gathering.

What rights were lost?  What was violated *EXACTLY*?  No generic terms not some long drawn out justification when they ask for your personal info what did you ACTUALLY lose which is what violation means, you LOST something in the process.

Microsoft takes hardware, software, and usage into account when they gather info, they don't "violate" you in ANY way.  You use the same phrase as people that do not have a CLUE what it means to be violated.  So they ASKED for some info, which by the way if you READ the EULA (End User License Agreement) you *AGREE* they can get this info *AND* you agree that they can use this information ANY WAY they see fit.

Also your comments are irrelevant to Windows.  I have been using Windows longer than you, I am pretty sure.. even before Windows 3.0 hit the mainstream, I am DOS 1.0 user going WAY back so I have seen the changes and nuances Windows has been through and I am MCSE Windows Tech for MANY years, so if you are a Windows guy as you claim you should know that Headset, skype, touchpad are *ALL* hardware (and also driver) problems has nothing at all to do with Windows.  Windows is the OS.  It's like blaming Walmart for carrying ugly clothes, Walmart is the vendor and the companies that promote their products within is 100% responsibility of the VENDOR not Walmart or Microsoft.  Someone likes those things and people like me KNOW how to fix them, you SAY you are tech but you SOUND more like a typical user.

Resume.. eh ok maybe that's a Windows problem,  video drivers have known issues with resume.  Windows resumes fine its the drivers that don't "wake up" from suspend that is the problem.  Windows manages hardware very well, I will bet you any amount of money you can resume your same machine perfectly every time, BEFORE you install any 3rd party software... so what does that tell you?  There is interference.

ITs much too easy for people to blame Microsoft for problems.  Privacy hasn't been violated or breached, again you AGREE to comply with user info, if you don't want them to get this info then pay attention to the license agreement you read (supposedly) BEFORE you used the product or make sure you UNDERSTAND what that entails.

Have no idea what you mean by "white space".  First time anyone I have seen used that in conjunction with Windows.

Ubuntu isn't better or worse it's just different, there are many things it cannot do like GAMES and there is a very good reason you don't see a whole slew of commercially available products on Unbuntu it's because it basically changes every day.

Also coincidentally I am a Linux Admin as well so I see and manage both sides.  Linux is great.. for some things, but it's not for the average user, you will trade one set of problems on Windows for another on Linux.

But those examples you gave are very poor.  Not related to Windows and will easily be exposed in Linux for the same reasons I gave above.

If you want to use Linux great, but don't pile on a bunch of useless info about Windows (which isn't true) just to make a point you want to use Linux.  Your point would have had the SAME impact if you simply would have started with "I like Linux because"... and leave it at that.


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dennis@360ict.nl

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Reply with quote  #3 
so.. this will teach me to start a casual forum post.. did you read the forum rules? [frown]. Anyway, lets try again. I have been trying linux (from the slackware kernel 1.1 times), but i consider myself still a newbee so I might not have been around as long as you but with dos 3.22/Win3/os2 i was not that far behind.. ;-)

I will elaborate on the usefull things thought so we might get into the topic discussion instead;
- didn't go into too much detail of the windows problems i had, but that was to give a little . I agree, i have made accusations that need more explaining, i'm sorry if i offended, it was not the goal. I thought it was obvious, but apparantly not achieved. Please ignore this post if i do it again from this point, instead of starting a flame war. I will.
- you say the bluetooth/touchpad issues have nothing to do with Windows, but i disagree with you on that. These are Dell machines i'm using and yes they have touchpad drivers who are to blame. Yes, Ms is taking control back because of the bad experience you get with those, but i still find the out of the box experience bad (and the things you can do). But on a newly XPS13 (with the T3 port) with Win10 without the driver the experience (i think) is again bad. Yes, we might blame Dell for that, but the experience on a vanilla ubuntu 14.04 was exactly what i wanted. 2 finger scrolling just worked, the touch sensitivity was also exactly right, like on a macbook. And yes i blame Dell/MS for not having the same experience. I work 8-12h per day on these things, so its important to me.
- The bluetooth/sound settings are another example, the way setting bluetooth/sound settings is very intuitive and apps listen correctly to these main/bluetooth sound settings. On windows on the same hardware (XPS12-duo) on Win8.1 and XSP13/win10 with certified for lync plantronics headset (so this is not a consumer grade headset) I had problems connecting the headset (turning on and let it connect) and sometimes i needed to re-pair the headset to get it working again. Apps (like lync/consumer-skype) needed restarting after connecting the bluetooth. In Ubuntu, this "just works" i can receive a call on the laptop, then turn the headset on and then take the call. I'm not limiting these problems to my own systems and experiences, my personel has the same problems on Windows. The bluetooth settings control is a mess with all kinds of settings on differtent places (might be just faulty win8.1 design, but still not intuitive on Win10).
- With whitespace i mean the space that is wasted on making things "prettier" by using lots of space inside windows/controls that don't have info and are just 'white". Skype is such an example (but the server manager for Windows 2012/R2 and Hyper-v managers too), the laptops are not that big (12"/13") and even though the resolution is ok, skype takes lots of whitespace between replies in a chat. In the skype for linux everything is nice condensed so i get more info on the same screen. yes, this is a app and not Windows, but again, better experience, for me at least. I found that to be true for a lots of controls/apps on ubuntu vs Windows. I just don't see that many whitespace on Ubuntu(apps). I think a quote of Mark applies here: "Why do we have so many IPv6 IP adresses? To waste them!" ;-)

Some more of my experiences;
- The only thing i thought was lacking was a good Outlook replacement, i tried evolution which is great but not made for online syncing with my 12Gb exchange mailbox through EWS and it had trouble keeping up with hangs/crashes. Yes, i do not need a 12gb mailbox, but i'm not willing to put in the time to clean it up. But now i just use OWA and Outlook on our RDSH servers and that niche usage (no internet and cached Outlook) i apparantly don't use that much.
- steam, teamviewer, spotify and filezilla run on Ubuntu! nice!
- nvidea supports lots of cards on linux (and the ones i used on the dell systems), even though they only support the last version of their drivertool

So.. "I like linux.." becasue it gave me a really good experience on a vanilla install and took away a lot of annoyances, even though they might me minor on a whole and very personal. I decided to stick with Ubuntu this time (i've been trying linux desktops for the last 15 years now) as a main system and was wondering if the guys who are here (which are IT Pro's) are using it on their desktop, the problems they run into and why they would (not) consider it. Also, let me state again I mean desktop experience on laptops/workstations, the server stuff is a whole other ballgame.



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Doug G

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Reply with quote  #4 
Well, I haven't used Ubuntu but have many years of RedHat / Fedora use.  My primary workstation is actually two, a W7 and Fedora 23 side by side.

My $00000000000.02, the windows UI is "smoother" and easier to use, and easier on my eyes.  I mostly use linux more for server apps than desktop apps, but for the usual browsing/email either OS is good.  I've spent a fair amount of time making nearly every important app (to me) work cross-platform.  I can work on my php/mysql web apps on either windows or linux workstations and upload from either to a cloud CentOS server.

Anyway, modern linux is very capable, but still doesn't have the broad range of hardware support, and you sometimes need a thick skin in some linux support sites.

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Anubis

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Reply with quote  #5 
I've distro hopped for years, been a win admin for over 15 years.  If you're use to windows Ubuntu prior Unity would have been a fairly easy transition, Mint is probably a little more on par with windows and Open SUSE surely is.  The one thing about nix is that there are a ton of choices and if you are really prone to tweaking the hell out of things you can get a system that is truly unique to you.  I've watched windows "evolve" over this time and have lost what I use to love about it.  The latest version has too many things that are deal breakers for me.  8 was just too funny, changing the interface on a server to mimic a tablet made me spit my coffee out.  Server not equal to Tablet.  I'm going to list what I see as negatives for the current direction.  There are merely here to invoke thought not start an argument so I'm open to hearing the pros just don't get grumpy if I'm still uninspired to move to this platform.

Forced updates:     Security updates notoriously have broken things.
Keylogger:             For years we've been told to watch for them and destroy them "Oh it's in the Eula." So                            that makes it ok?
Telemetry:             This is not ok, they were called personal computers for a reason.
Using your bandwidth to push software free of charge:     Yes I know you can "tweak" this feature, it's still not ok to have others use my bandwidth.

Lack of documentation of update changes etc:
The EULA:    It's just scary.
The sheer pushiness of the upgrade:
Lack of control:     I didn't take a deep dive, but I am vaguely aware of services that cannot be turned off even if you want them off.

This article sorta stood out.

http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2015/07/29/wind-nos/

"Microsoft has grabbed some very broad powers to collect things you do, say and create while using its software. Your data won’t be staying on your computer, that much is for sure."

The Fall Update debacle was more than disturbing at least to me.

The largest downside i see to this data collection is how it is used, furthermore if those servers ever get hacked and I don't mean in a let's screw things up fashion, but more from a let's tap into this data source and never let go.  It will be more than news worthy.

So all in all that's my short list.
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Howard2nd

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Reply with quote  #6 
50 years in electronics, 40 years in computers, 20+ years a net admin (Windows and Linux and BSD) so for fun I play with a couple of Raspberry Pis. As they have grown in power and capability. The operating systems available have also grown. Now I can run the default 'Jessie', a DEBIAN variant, or Ubuntu Mate, or KODI (XBMC clone), or Windows 10 (Internet of Things). 

Not being a 'fan boy' I try to avoid religious fervor and use the best system for the job at hand. That means at work I use Windows 10 and Office 2016 along with the 50,000 others at UF. Consistent results and easy sharing goes a long way. I had a Nook reader and replaced it with an iPad with the apps for Nook and Kindle because it is best for the job of media consumption. I have a Samsung Galaxy Tab and it is light, convenient and and almost an iPad replacement. My web servers run Centos and Nginx because that is a stable, low maintenance solution.

If this going to a forum about using Ubuntu and other Linux systems, then I am all in. BUT if it is about bashing, I won't be back.

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donoli

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Reply with quote  #7 
Fact #1:  There is no such thing as a perfect OS.  So, an OS debate is a waste of time.  It's good to have a few OSes to match your needs.  If we are going to have an OS debate, let's include Unix which was around years before Linux.  IMO, Linux is an imitation Unix so you might as well have FreeBSD or something similar.  The biggest problem with Linux & Unix is the drivers.  You already mentioned Broadcom.  Linux users despise Broadcom.  Let's add the lack of printer drivers.  CUPS is the best they have & it's still sucks.


To get a really good perspective download:  The Unix Haters Handbook which was written by the 3 guys who started Unix & the C programming language. It was all started as a joke.  The plan was to send it to the Soviets, to set them back 20 years.  They were shocked when AT&T adapted the OS & used it for years.
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Mark

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Reply with quote  #8 
Dennis --

I mess with Linux now and then on the desktop.  I agree that Ubuntu has a nice, professional look, and if all you needed was a browser, an email client, some kind of word processor/spreadsheet/presentation tool and that's it, then yes, I could see going Ubuntu.  Additionally, I share your discomfort with Windows 10.  I don't like the gun-to-the-head about the "telemetry," where you can turn it off, so long as you're okay with ceding all control of your updates... ugh. There definitely IS a feeling of heavy-handedness to much of Windows 10.  (Where did that abortion of a Metro Calculator come from, anyway?)

That said, the thing that would keep me with Windows is the sheer number of applications.  Microsoft keeps a database of compatibility info on third party apps and I'm told that it numbers in the MILLIONS.

It's kinda like me and my Windows phone.  I like it a lot.  But I'm gettin' tired of no apps.  So the Nexus 6P is arriving today.

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Infradeploy

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
Dennis --

So the Nexus 6P is arriving today.


You won't be sorry Mark

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wkasdo

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Reply with quote  #10 
> Nexus 6P

Nexus 5X here [smile]

Love it.

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JamesNT

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Reply with quote  #11 
My hatred of all things *nix is well known on this forum and elsewhere.  I've always been MS.

That being said, between my Android phone, my Android TV, and my FreeBSD firewall (Junos), even I am beginning to see the benefits out straying outside my comfort zone on occasion. 

Now, that being said, I doubt I'll be going on Munich and ditching Windows for Linux on my desktop anytime soon.  However, what I will say is that I'm not afraid to look around any more.

JamesNT

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cj_berlin

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Reply with quote  #12 
James,

Munich is reverting back to Windows anyway [smile]

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